Upgrade Dilemna

[Garion]

Hi Guys,

Need your opinions/help on this. Planning to upgrade either body or lens closer to end of this year, but torn between either upgrading my body or lens, can't decide. :wahpiang: My present birding gear consists of a Canon 10D with the 300mm f2.8L lens with the 1.4x and 2x teleconverters. However, like Mervin budget is the limiting factor in my case...I simply can't justify spending so much cash on something that is only a hobby...due to this I can only limit my spending to abt 5k or so max....so no stuff like upgrade lens and body together pls. I intend to keep my current 10D body as backup.

My upgrade options are as follows:

Canon EOS 1D Mk II body (new/used) - I am definitely looking into a 1 series class body for my next body...the 10D's AF is frustratingly slow and cost me a lot of missed shots. I'm unlikely to get the 20D coz it is more or less in the same class as 10D, with only slightly faster AF, 8.0 megapixels vs 6 megapixels which isn't a big deal. Same small, dim viewfinder too. So 1D Mk II it is for me. However the downside is that I lose some of the built in "length", the Mk II has a 1.3x crop factor compared to a 1.6x crop for 10D/20D bodies.

Canon EF 500mm f4L IS USM lens (new/used) - My dream lens and until recently, my main target. However I've been giving it a lot of thought recently....no doubt it is a great lens, but the price is horrendously expensive (ard 10k SGD), I know there are cheaper alternatives out there like the Sigma 500mm f4.5 HSM, but the resale value of such lens is not very good, and I'm not a big fan of 3rd party lens. Sigma 300-800mm is out for me too, due to its gargantuan size and weight. I know length is everything for birding, but I don't want to blow so much money on just one lens, only to use it once or twice a week. If only there is such thing as rental of long tele lens in sg... :(

Canon EF 500mm f4.5L USM (used) - Another option for me but can only AF with 1.4x TC on a pro body (MF only on 10D/20D) and no AF when 2x is used (f9.0). Quite rare and hard to find used. No IS.

I'd like your frank opinions and comments, to help me out, remember I am working on a fairly tight budget here...so anything close to 10k is out for me...sigh... :sweat:

Thanks in advance!

[Arthur]

Hi bro,

Would suggest you save the $$$ and upgrade the body to the '8fps MEAN MACHINE' coz you already own a wonderful piece of len. Although the reach is uncomparable to a 500mm or 600mm, a careful and steady approach will still able to get the shots you always dream of ;)

Especially for people who don't drive including myself...can't imagine myself in the situation of carrying the 'killer' lenses while travelling, squeezed inside the crowded buses or MRT :sweat:

Just a 0.0002 cents suggestion.

Cheers

[wilis128]

bro.. very tough choice..

but if you weigh carefully, based on your shooting style and subjects of preference.. all this time have you lost more shots from (1) poor AF tracking and speed or (2) not enough reach/focal length?

hope from this analysis there can be a decision point on which to upgrade 1st.

other costs to consider with lens:
-bigger dry cabinet
-upgrade to wimberley gimbal.
all this adds up.. :sweat:

good luck..

[nickmak]

Bro Garion,

All I can say is, buy what you really want that is good for birding, because in the end you won't regret. Let's say if you bought another lens of similar focal length to the 500mm, but its not the one you've been looking for all this time, then when you have the lens, you will be banging your head everytime you see a 500mm f4L right bro?

I can always get you a discount for the lens!

But as what others have said, the body also matters, and I can say that if image size doesn't matter then a used 1D would do, or even a used 1DMKII too for that matter. (Time to bug Terence again eh?)

Anyways hope you decide soon because I really wanna go birding with you guys real soon! Last exam is next Tuesday and no more exams for life! Muahahahahaha.....

Cheers,
Nick

[joeyao]

Agree fully with both Arthur and wilis128. Of course if you own a car and have lots of $$$, go for both :D

[Garion]

Touch choice, hor. :sweat: Thanks everyone for all your responses so far. No conclusive answer as of yet, looks like a draw so far...

[wkcheah76]

One exotic lens needs an exotic body. It is the natural way of life... The trick is to get the body dirt cheap until there is no reason why not to change. Unless one guy sells a 500mm f/4 second hand on CS... that's was my push factor towards Canon. So either wait out for a second hand lens or improve on what you have now with a more powerful body. :lol:

[Garion]

Hi bro,

Would suggest you save the $$$ and upgrade the body to the '8fps MEAN MACHINE' coz you already own a wonderful piece of len. Although the reach is uncomparable to a 500mm or 600mm, a careful and steady approach will still able to get the shots you always dream of ;)

Especially for people who don't drive including myself...can't imagine myself in the situation of carrying the 'killer' lenses while travelling, squeezed inside the crowded buses or MRT :sweat:

Just a 0.0002 cents suggestion.

CheersBro, thanks for the advice. You are right about the size and bulk of a 500mm/600mm...I dun drive too and even now the 300/2.8 is a pain in the ass to hail around in public transport, let alone a 500/600mm. You are right also abt the careful and steady approach method....that can make up for lack of focal length.

[Garion]

bro.. very tough choice..

but if you weigh carefully, based on your shooting style and subjects of preference.. all this time have you lost more shots from (1) poor AF tracking and speed or (2) not enough reach/focal length?

hope from this analysis there can be a decision point on which to upgrade 1st.

other costs to consider with lens:
-bigger dry cabinet
-upgrade to wimberley gimbal.
all this adds up.. :sweat:

good luck..Bro William,

Excellent analysis there, especially the first point. After some thought about what you have said, for me, it is a fairly even mixture of (1) and (2). It really depends on what kind of situation I am shooting in, in some cases (like recently) you need the AF speed and fast tracking and perhaps a higher frame rate to get more keepers, it is very frustrating to see a potential good shot slip away due to slow AF, not high enough fps or small memory buffer. In some other cases (more often than not I would say) you really need a lot of focal length for skittish birds. I would say it is more of the latter case here in sg. But having a long lens and an average body would not enable you to capture fast action sequences in demanding situations (flight shots for e.g) where the focus would hunt and hunt.

You are also right about the "hidden" costs after getting the long lens, need to invest in new dry cabi, new bag, perhaps a full gimbal head, among other things. It is not a question of whether or not I can afford to buy the lens, it is just that I can't seem to justify buying something so expensive and so specialized in its usage. And like most shooters here, I can only shoot during the weekends, so 70% of the time this $10k piece of glass would be just sitting in the dry cabi collecting dust.

Thanks for your feedback, anyway. :)

[Garion]

Bro Garion,

All I can say is, buy what you really want that is good for birding, because in the end you won't regret. Let's say if you bought another lens of similar focal length to the 500mm, but its not the one you've been looking for all this time, then when you have the lens, you will be banging your head everytime you see a 500mm f4L right bro?

I can always get you a discount for the lens!

But as what others have said, the body also matters, and I can say that if image size doesn't matter then a used 1D would do, or even a used 1DMKII too for that matter. (Time to bug Terence again eh?)

Anyways hope you decide soon because I really wanna go birding with you guys real soon! Last exam is next Tuesday and no more exams for life! Muahahahahaha.....

Cheers,
Nick
Bro Nick,

Thanks for your feedback and views on my questions. :) Of course if cost no object I would definitely go for the best in everything, maybe even a 600mm f4 IS with a 1Ds Mk II, but the problem is I do not have that kind of cash available to throw. I am on a fairly tight budget as of now, but I am seeking to upgrade, just one item based on this budget, so lets say if you were in my shoes, with abt $5k to spend, what would you do?

The Sigma 500mm f4.5 does fit the bill and my budget, but like what you said, its a case of always wanting to get the better lens. (been there, done that). But I am just unwilling to spend that much, so what would you think is the next best alternative?

[Garion]

One exotic lens needs an exotic body. It is the natural way of life... The trick is to get the body dirt cheap until there is no reason why not to change. Unless one guy sells a 500mm f/4 second hand on CS... that's was my push factor towards Canon. So either wait out for a second hand lens or improve on what you have now with a more powerful body. :lol:Bro Jon,

You have hit the nail right on the head with your 1st statement. :sweat: Unfortunately that is so true....so I guess like what u said it boils down to getting one of the items "dirt cheap" or perhaps used at a great discount (like ur case), and so make the move. But its a long wait, esp for long lens, they don't pop up regularly on B&S, and not at that kind of low low prices too.

I suppose what I could do is hang on to what I have now and sit tight and just wait for a good second hand deal on lens to appear....and perhaps upgrade body in the process...thats the only way to shave costs I guess...just need to wait lor...

[cyrn]

after seeing your posts here... I think you'll be better off with a 1dm2 and stick to your current 300mm and for reach + 2x + 1.4x stacked...on a 1dm2, you'll still have reasonably good AF.

nickmak have tried stacking much more converters and still have af on his 1dm2.

[Mervin]

my say - 1DMkII !!!!
:p

[glennyong]

heh.. tc stacking huh.....

[harlequin]

Garion : You know my answers already.....there was once a chance for a 600mm F4 at a very good price...told you to get it already. anyway, wkcheah is using it now happily.

opportunity dont come easily....miss it once and you'll bang your head forever.

When there's a will, there's a way.....

If i can name one person who more "on" and carries his gears all over the world, he is SKFoo.

Dont want to get into the story of longs lens & fast body topic again. Get what you think you can get your hands on and use it.

Wake up early and shoot everytime you can.

Now, do you want me to carry back a 500mm F4 from B&H here in the US ?

:)

[ccplim]

Garion : You know my answers already.....there was once a chance for a 600mm F4 at a very good price...told you to get it already. anyway, wkcheah is using it now happily.
:bangwall: :bangwall:

If i can name one person who more "on" and carries his gears all over the world, he is SKFoo.
This one I agree! He is one of our very good example :thumb:

Wake up early and shoot everytime you can.
:lol: :D :lol:

Now, do you want me to carry back a 500mm F4 from B&H here in the US ?
:drool:

[Garion]

Garion : You know my answers already.....there was once a chance for a 600mm F4 at a very good price...told you to get it already. anyway, wkcheah is using it now happily.

opportunity dont come easily....miss it once and you'll bang your head forever.

When there's a will, there's a way.....

If i can name one person who more "on" and carries his gears all over the world, he is SKFoo.

Dont want to get into the story of longs lens & fast body topic again. Get what you think you can get your hands on and use it.

Wake up early and shoot everytime you can.

Now, do you want me to carry back a 500mm F4 from B&H here in the US ?

:)
Agree lar, what you have said is true. I would have seriously considered the 600mm f4 at that time if not for lack of funds. Well I can always wait, no problem, not in a hurry to get. :)

Agree with you on SKFoo, he is really one to emulate for his enthusiasm and energy when it comes to wildlife photography. :thumbsup:

Yah, shoot more is the motto.

If you sponsored me, I would gladly accept the 500mm. :D

[wrexel]

Hi Garion

Based on my past experiences, if there is a choice between buying a lens or a SLR body - I would get the lens everytime. Look at the rate at which new digital bodies drop in price! It is scary that something you buy at 6k today will be worth half of that in 1.5 years when a new body is out.

I guess all of us have this dilemma. By way of introduction, I am using an old 70-210mm lens to shoot birds in my garden. As they come fairly close to me, I am content to continue with it to improve my skills.

Cheers
Wrex

[Avatar]

Garion, if you ask me, I say take the lens, this is the ONE THING that remains bodies after bodies. Its quality reflects in your output so, this is really a no brainer. :)

[Sree]

If you sponsored me, I would gladly accept the 500mm. :D


:bigeyes: Harlequin, Sponsor Me...Sponsor Me :gift:


Garion I think Avatar has a good point. I would suggest you go for the lens. It'll probably be easier to get the 1D/Ds Mk II second-hand / at a good price 6-9 months down the road. Sure we'll have newer super-duper cameras coming out but I am pretty sure the Mk II can meet your needs fully for years to come. But don't listen to me as I haven't followed my own advice (not for a while anyway) :lol:

My Nikon film body is 18 years and still going strong. I just don't shoot film anymore. My digital Nikon D2X is all I ever need for the next decade, I hope. It's a fantastic body/performer. Now what was I saying ..err.. :wahpiang:

Sree

[ccplim]

I agree with Avatar's point of view too and have been putting my concentration on the lens.

Garion, still remember what I told you the other day? Having a lean mean machine and top of the line equipment will sure help us to have more keepers. However, if you can't get what you want, live with what you have now and try to push your skill above the limitation of you equipment. ;)

[MountainMan]

Having a lean mean machine and top of the line equipment will sure help us to have more keepers. However, if you can't get what you want, live with what you have now and try to push your skill above the limitation of you equipment. ;)

A well said statement !!!! :thumb:

[Garion]

I agree with Avatar's point of view too and have been putting my concentration on the lens.

Garion, still remember what I told you the other day? Having a lean mean machine and top of the line equipment will sure help us to have more keepers. However, if you can't get what you want, live with what you have now and try to push your skill above the limitation of you equipment. ;)Bro, well said and I fully agree with you. Sometimes we all get caught up in the great equipment chase and lose sight of what goes into the making of a great image. Agree that I have not even utilized the max potential of my gear yet. Most impt. is to be happy with what you have, and challenge yourself to make stunning images out of it.

Thanks also to wrexel, Avatar and Sree for your views. I had also posed the same question in another forum and the overwhelming verdict is to go for the lens first. In short, I am in no hurry to get the lens, or to rush into an upgrade of any sort, still saving up, will wait and see first to see if a good 2nd hand deal for lens pops up first. In the meantime, keep shooting and try to utilize my current gear to the max.

Once again, thanks to all who replied to this thread for your help and advice! :)

[Jeff]

I would take the lens. It really does make a lot of difference here. While body value can depreciate by a large margin within a span of 6 months, a good lens can retain it's value. I perceive the lens as a form of investment. Bodywise, heard Canon coming up with a 20D replacement in Aug/sept period :lol: . So for the body, there is really no end to this upgrade cycle.

So a good lens is here to stay for a very long time. Forgot to mention the IS really works wonders for my case. FYI, I sold the 20D and got a used 1D for <<3k. My only complaint now is my setup is heavier than before and thus renders me less mobile. But I do gain in the AF department.

Well, "Buy now, regret later".

My 2 cents.

[Sumit]

Hi,
In my opinion, the theory that the lens is it!, is no longer as valid as it was in the days of the film camera. With film you were dealing with a constant medium between cameras to capture information. Digital has created an unequal platform as chips differ and quality of capturing information differs. I don't think you will be able to recreate an identical shot with an older DSLR as compared to more fancy one using controlled conditions. In film this was possible.
So, your choice is indeed a difficult one and one solution is to base it on the reason you photograph birds. If you want to shoot good images of as many species as you can, then go for flexibilty and ease of use. If on the other hand you don't mind shooting endless BSKites till you get the perfect shot - just go for quality and don't compromise on weight and flexibilty issues. Personally, I'd first buy the lens to meet my need - camera technology today means that later is better and cheaper.
My two rupees worth !
Cheers!
sumit

[wkcheah76]

Another answer is how much juice you can squeeze out of your equipment with the money you are going to spend... 300mm x 2 (f/5.6) vs a 500mm x 1.414 (f/5.6).. 600mm -> 700mm is it worth it for the number of ks you will be spending. Then from a 10D -> 20D or 1Dmkii... I'm sure you'll keep you 10D as a backup. Is a first hand 20D or a second hand 1Dmkii going to bring your shots to another level.. of coz we can keep waiting and waiting for the new body to pop out .. Bodies to me a wait outs unless you can get a dirt cheap one to bring you to another level... If I were you, I'll keep the 300mm and wait out for price drop (soon) or bite the bullet and do shopping in USA/HK..

[glennyong]

keep the lens.... invest in new lenses... body is secondary... body keeps on improving.. while lens very slow in terms of technological improvements...

therefore wait for the body to depreciate like siao, and spend for lenses...

[cshoe]

Hi Garion,
Since you already have a 300 F2.8, keep it and get a 500/600 f4.
That way you will have best of both worlds.
each has its own strengths and specialised use.

As for the body, soon there will be another newer one that is better and better after that. When will it end? :dunno:

Im still using my 20D. it has its limitations but we try to work around these.

Enjoy the lens.
If you have the $$$ then enjoy the lens and the body...

But I think if it were my choice...its lens.

just my wiew.
:)

[glennyong]

Hi Garion,
Since you already have a 300 F2.8, keep it and get a 500/600 f4.
That way you will have best of both worlds.
each has its own strengths and specialised use.

As for the body, soon there will be another newer one that is better and better after that. When will it end? :dunno:

Im still using my 20D. it has its limitations but we try to work around these.

Enjoy the lens.
If you have the $$$ then enjoy the lens and the body...

But I think if it were my choice...its lens.

just my wiew.
:)

agreed agreed...... i also wish i could get a 600 /4 and a D70s.. whahaa

[Andrew]

Hi Garion,

Go for the lens. Having seen some of your excellent pictures, you are constrained by your equipment, I think lens more so than body. The body is just a light box. With digital photography, the game has changed and the sensor makes the difference. While all of us would like to have great AF etc, great photographs can be taken without AF. However, great photographs cannot be taken without great lens.

The 500mm is legendary, and having seen your passion in this, you have no choice but to get it. Even if you have to lug it on a bus. It is your destiny.

P.S. Get your friend to lug it back from the States. :)

[wheels]

Hey Garion,

I think it is more important to shoot birds with a usable body but long reaching and sharp lens. 10D is quite usable la. With a new body, you can shoot faster but probably the same species different pose but with a long lens, you can shoot vast different species with different poses. :lol: (probably bad example)

But unless you are into shooting sports, wedding, etc, then changing body not so necessary IMO. :)

Hope this helps.

[Garion]

Many thanks to Jeff, Sumit, wkcheah76, glennyong, cshoe, Andrew and wheels for your views and suggestions, much appreciated. I have decided (with 90% certainty) that the next upgrade would be the lens. Probably much later on, when I have the funds, the body will be next, will continue using my workhorse 10D until then.

Once again, thanks to all for your feedback and appreciate the time taken to answer my questions. :)

[benny]

hmm.. How much would the EF 300 F2.8 sell for? 5K? With the additional 5K that you were going to invest, you should be able to make it work right? Unless you are keeping both lenes.

Cheers,

[Garion]

hmm.. How much would the EF 300 F2.8 sell for? 5K? With the additional 5K that you were going to invest, you should be able to make it work right? Unless you are keeping both lenes.

Cheers,Hi benny,

Thanks for ur feedback. I estimate shld be somewhere between 3.5 to 4k. So I would need to top up by at least another 6k. It is possible yes, if I keep saving, so end of the year is the target for me. I won't keep both lenses (as good as both are), due to financial restraints, one has to go and that is the 300mm.

[benny]

well...if you want to field test the equipment to reassure yourself, let me know. I'm sure we can arrange something.

Cheers,

[nickmak]

Bro Garion,

When you do get the 500mm, and I'm sure that you will sometime in the near future, get the full Wimberley head. I tried both sidekick and head at Cathay yesterday before I left back for BKK and I can say that I preferred the full head completely. If you can get another tripod for it, it would also be a superb set.

All the best to you and your aquisitions!

Cheers,
Nick

[Garion]

well...if you want to field test the equipment to reassure yourself, let me know. I'm sure we can arrange something.

Cheers,benny,

Thanks for your kind offer, I definitely wouldn't mind meeting with you sometime soon to try out the 500mm. Perhaps can meet up with you at the outing at MOG if you're going there. :)

[Garion]

Bro Garion,

When you do get the 500mm, and I'm sure that you will sometime in the near future, get the full Wimberley head. I tried both sidekick and head at Cathay yesterday before I left back for BKK and I can say that I preferred the full head completely. If you can get another tripod for it, it would also be a superb set.

All the best to you and your aquisitions!

Cheers,
NickBro Nick,

Thanks for your feedback, I already have the Sidekick, will still be using it if I do upgrade to the 500mm. Maybe can upgrade to the full head much later on. ;)

BTW when will u be coming to Sg? Exams over liao rite?